Forum:Tech Tree
Hazza-the-Fox 12:09, November 14, 2011 (UTC) This is the section where we can discuss the tech tree for both the structural order, as well as the unit pre-requisites, tech levels and dependencies. The basics are that the tech tree follows closely to the Red Alert 2 layout, with a few re-arrangements. One major inclusion is a FOURTH tech level- which is really more of a 'bonus' tech level- which is available after constructing the "Advanced Lab/Intelligence Center" structure. This is not a regular tier, but strictly a bonus tier that mostly unlocks upgrades, access to the primary super-weapon, and only a couple of units. The Tiers are granted as follows: *Tier 1- Start of game *Tier 2- building the Radar/Airforce HQ *Tier 3- Building the Battle Lab *Tier 4- Building the Advanced Lab/Intelligence Center Structure Tech Tree Hazza-the-Fox 23:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Ok, some notes: CONYARD- builds other structures DEPOT- resource collection; SERVICE BAY- helipad/general repair, refitting structure- also helps regenerate secondary attack power in units. HANGAR- where aircraft are made. Note that for the Allied side, the Air HQ is where Raptors are made. ECONOMY SAVER- a likely place where the likes of the Cloning Vats and other comparable structures will be available. ADV. LAB- exists only to unlock extreme upgrades, abilities and a few units. Some things to consider; *This might not reflect the entire list of general structures- but just a rough idea of where the main important ones are *The Walls and Pillbox are placed as pre-reactor buildings. This reflects the Battle-Bunker/Tank Bunker mechanic in Yuri's Revenge as they too were available from the start- which was good as they required other units to fill them- but allowed the player to get SOME defenses going while they were busy setting their base up. Walls on the other hand might possibly afford to wait till the Barracks *The layout is to help speed up access to the player's preferred unit production type. However, the Barracks is clearly the faster option, and the Hangars are a little later- but all structures require a minimum of buildings to access (except things that you really SHOULD have been building before anyway- like the Depot and Power plant). *The Primary Superweapon has been bumped up to Tier 4, to help break up the rush to get the nuke. VolteMetalic 11:09, November 15, 2011 (UTC): Yes, I agree on these ones. So "Pillbox" will be pretty much a normal bunker, yes? And what abotu the gates, would they be used or not? And you forgot for national defense, Grand Cannon and Fallout Fort. But they might be Tier 3. And maybe just Radar structure, maybe it might be connected to war factory and not depot. And where will be Soviet Airfield, and Allies' equivalent? Hazza-the-Fox 21:11, November 15, 2011 (UTC)Correct- Pillbox refers to the likes of Battle Bunkers, Tank Bunkers, or some kind of stationary IFV-type defense. These were excellent because they had zero offensive capabilities, and required diverting your infantry or tanks into them Gates- probably not- but if anything, they would be a later-game unlockable (or othwerwise speedy rush units would lose a lot of purpose- especially engineers and flak tracks). Grand Cannon/ Fallout Fort would be either Tier 2 (like in Red Alert 2) or 3 (as you recommended). Oh, the Radar/Air-HQ being dependent on the depot is deliberate- that way players can jump straight into aircraft without needing the war factory first (thus the War factory becomes more of a desirable detour, rather than a necessity to advance up; plus it means a player who bypasses vehicles is rewarded with a head start in tech- and aircraft. And both airfields are the "Hangar" structures- the Allied and Soviet versions will have different names, and very different appearances; *The Allied version will consist of a helipad (manufacturing choppers) and a large-berth airstrip to accomodate 2 heavy STOL aircraft (nightwings/Hurricanes). Because the Air HQ already has 4 fighter bays, the Allied Hangar doesn't have, nor need them. *The Soviet version however has 3-4 fighter bays, and a single large kirov bay (also where the MYK and Hind are made). As the soviets do not have heavy STOL aircraft, they don't need a large-berth airstrip. VolteMetalic 22:09, November 15, 2011 (UTC): So, Pillboxes serves to be able to house 5 infantry? Just 5 infantry? Or like Multigunner Turret in RA3, depending on 1 infantry inside it will chnage the weaponry? Hmmm, ok, so waht about Gates for Tier 3? Tier 3 for National defense, they are pretty powerful. Hmm... I guess... but at least make Service Bay dependable on War Factory, that will makes sense, as when you will dont have factory to build vehicles, you cant repair vehicles there :) Moment... so Allied "hangar" will be for heavy aircraft, and Soviet's will be standard, right? That sounds fine! :D But i think Allies might be able to house only one heavy aircraft up there :) Hazza-the-Fox 00:56, November 16, 2011 (UTC) To be honest I haven't thought it through yet; it may be different structures for different sides, the only similarity is that whatever they would be, they would be empty structures designed for your units to fire out of them. Gates for Tier 3- or possibly 4- make the defenders earn their gates I say! The only consideration is that to wait to tier 4, the defender probably deserves gates that come included with some defense towers, possibly. Good point- service bay might even be a Depot-dependent instead (that way, the players could access one regardless if they opt for air or factory first). Keep in mind the aircraft will probably be more dependent on these structures than vehicles are; Yep- Allied "Hangar" is only for heavy aircraft and helicopters, while the Soviets need their Hangar for ALL of their aircraft. MEanwhile, the Allied "Radar" serves their fighter jets (Raptors), while the Soviet radar does not (but probably does something really cool to make up for it). Good point about the limited aircraft for the Allied Hangar; out of curiosity, would a single-runway hangar then be able to accomodate a repair pad? VolteMetalic 08:16, November 16, 2011 (UTC): I agree that they will be empty, but just the question is if it will have space only ofr one infantry to act as IFV, or as a ZH Chinese Bunker, or RA3 Soviet Battle Bunker, to accomodate 5 infantry. Yeah, Tier 4 also sounds fine, but than it will need some kind of badass abilities to be somehow coresponding to the tier. Yeah, Depot-dependant also makes sense. But now I remembered, if Navalyard, Factory and Hangar (and Allied Air HQ) will generate the repairing drones, whats the point of Service bay actually? And for Allied hangar... depends on what do you mean by "repair bay". If you mean to generate repair drones, sure, that wont be a problem. Hazza-the-Fox 10:50, November 16, 2011 (UTC) I was hoping we could discuss that actually :P I'm not even sure I would have a Tank Bunker for the Allies and "IFV" bunker for the soviets (to mix and match), or a rifle-only bunker, or have the "IFV" style bunker for the Allies (making use of attacks like the M-COM's disguise- turning it into a camo-bunker). As you can see, there are plenty of options that would work well either which way. Even a Zero-Hour style 'Firebase' is an option (although horribly excessive as a starting defense in that sense, it could double as a component tower for Patriots and such). Another thing to consider is a light anti-naval gun as a possible extension to this basic structure (only attacks ships)? Plenty to discuss... Indeed- a gigantic bunker attachment would be the very first thing that comes to mind; repairing nearby structures another- possibly being able to spawn its own attack dogs is another... (on that note- I thought that could be a possible way to have attack dogs and engineers have some kind of function when garrisoned inside specialized structures- that the bunker might become a kennel that spawns uncontrollable guard dogs (like attack dogs, only they don't obey the player and just hang around the gate)- and engineers would repair the structure they are inside. Good point- I think the service bay would depend on if we were to opt for a good ol' fashion mechanized arm to repair the vehicles and a helipad to land on for gunships to re-arm (and possibly, restock all 'charge' for special abilities in other units). But that aside you are exactly right. If we were to use the drones as the repair mechanism, the support bay would not be required. ---- On that note, we now have the next list of things to consider; the 'economy saver' structure for the Soviets would obviously be the cloning vats- but I would also put the Nuclear Plant in the mix as well (maybe a Bio-Nuclear plant- generates insane power- but adding mind-controlled enemies inside might stabilize it from meltdown), and also the Grinder (only now it is the Industrial Engine- which might use captured infantry units to generate constant money- and captured vehicles simply get recycled). Similarly, we would need to think of the Allied equivalents. On that note- resource generating structures for very late game? (even though the supply truck and barge system makes a nice mechanic- I think like the gates, if players REALLY wanted to go out of their way to say, Tier 4 just to get access to these things- and they were expensive- why not? The final thing to consider would be any defensive superweapons like shields (although that would probably make the most sense as in-built to the Battle Lab- or even the Adv Lab). VolteMetalic 20:14, November 16, 2011 (UTC): I think that the normal bunker might be enough. To hold 5 infantry who will be using their weapons like normally (so Guardian will still use missiles), also heavy infantry which cant normally enter structures can enter here. And beside it, Soviet Bunker might have a machine gun on the top, manned by Conscript, or maybe a tank gun. And Allied bunker will have a sensor array, with higher sight range so heavier defenses (Prism Tower and Grand Cannon) can attack enemy sooner. The Service Bay and repair drones... I asked my brother, and he had an idea, that as "secondary" it will be able to produce "Mobile (controlable) Repair Drone" (slightly larger than Terror Drone). It will be able to move on ground and on water, and as Secondary the ability to change into aerial. As it is controlable you can send it to aid in battle to repair vehicles, ships or aircrafts. Also, there is a problem that we already have 12 structures filled, and 12 is limit for the engine to work out flawless. But I had an idea to integrate one economy saver into service bay. Like Soviet will have the Industrial Engine with abiltiy to produce the Mobile Repair Drone. In RA3 the Grinder Crane was able to grind vehicles (probably not infantry, but I am not sure of it), so maybe it can be implemented with Service bay. As other economy saver Soviets can have the Nuclear Super Reactor. The Cloning Vats might be too much. And Allies might have as normal economy saver Ore Purifier. It will have an aura around itself which will increase the income given by supply truck and barge (and heli) to the Depot, so you must build it nearby Depot. The economy saver + service bay for Allies, I dont have idea right now. The structure to generate income soudns fine when it will be accessible in Tier 4, but problem is that as I already said there is no room for it in Structure Menu. The only option is to place it among Defense Menu. As "Defensive Superpower" is though as Chronosphere and Iron Curtain. And Iron Curtain is kind of shield. And Allies might have shield as sort of Support Power. Hazza-the-Fox 01:03, November 17, 2011 (UTC) That would probably work fine for bunkers. That drone idea could also work. Well, if there is a 12 structure limit then we definitely would have to compress these functions a bit (as it stands, we have 11 non-armory structures- with possibly two of those designated for these purposes). Out of curiosity, would cloning actually be possible? Probably true also for the superweapons. As it stands, the idea is that you would have your 'tactical' superweapon (Chronosphere, Curtain), your mega-superweapon (Nuke), resource superweapon (resource generators), and your 'passive' superweapon (the adv lab). So now there's just the issue of what exactly we might need (brain's going blank right now). VolteMetalic 08:21, November 17, 2011 (UTC): There is 4-5 production buildings, 2-3 technology structures and 5 other structures, among which you have these 2 economy savers. Reactor, ConYard and Depot cant be changed into economy savers, so the only one remaining are these two, which by my suggestion are them. No idea. But I guess that it can be made in different way than in RA2. After construction, it might make that all infantry are produced from Barracks in two, while keeping the same price. If you know where the resource generators might be placed, we can put it here. And I think it would require a "pure" economy saver and adv lab to make the resource generator. Oh, that reminds me, how many will be able to produce of the resource generators? Hazza-the-Fox 08:44, November 17, 2011 (UTC) These are good points and questions; Well that would be perfectly awesome if the cloning vats simply doubled the output of the barracks at the same price! And that second question raises a larger question of if certain structures can only be built as singles (that is, you are limited to ONE Chronosphere) or infinite (like how Generals allowed you to build as many nuke silos as you liked- minus the fact that their cost was extremely high and they were slow to build). Which is actually part of the reason I introduced the Adv Lab; to help make these structures less accessible by bumping them up a tier. The alternative- if it is possible- is that they would occupy the lower tiers (tier 3)- but can only be built as a single. But the Advanced Lab would allow multiple of these structures to be built (and if the lab is destroyed, ALL of the structures with a 'twin' will go offline until the player cuts power to one of them. I'll have to start designing some sketches of possible ideas.... VolteMetalic 09:35, November 17, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, I guess that this way might not be a problem to make. Maybe Cloning Vats might be integrated into Adv Lab? I would go with one-only. Its more traditional than Generals was. And the idea for the Adv Lab influencing the superweapons, that might not work out I think. Hazza-the-Fox 11:26, November 17, 2011 (UTC) I didn't think of that (using the Adv Lab to double as one of the other structures)- that is a very good idea! No probs (I personally find either one or multiple works). I think it might weigh against the resource-generating structure though (unless it injected a fair amount of cash (or units) on a periodic basis). VolteMetalic 13:21, November 17, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, it might give a large cash after some time or some free units :) Unit Pre-requisites Allied Barracks: Tier 1: Dog, Scout, Engineer, Marine, Guardian GI Tier 2: Spy, Rocketeer, Medic Tier 3: Chrono Legionairre, Jager Sniper Commando, Centurion Trooper, M-COM Tier 4: - War Factory Vehicles Tier 1: Supply Truck, Wildcat IFV, FlameBot Tier 2: Kodiak Tank, MARS Tier 3: Sonic Tank Tier 4: - Aircraft (Air HQ and Hangar): Tier 1: - Tier 2: Raptor, Blackhawk, Comanche Tier 3: Nightwing Tier 4: - NAVY Tier 1: Supply Barge, Aegis Hydrofoil, Allied "Boomer" submarine, Amphibious Transport Tier 2: Battlecruiser, Attack Dolphin Tier 3: Drone Carrier Tier 4: KRONOS Soviet Barracks: Tier 1: Dog, Scout, Engineer, Conscript , Flak Trooper Tier 2: Spy, Pariah, Comissar Tier 3: PsiCorps Trooper, Tesla Trooper, Desolator, Crazy Ivan Tier 4: - War Factory Vehicles Tier 1: Supply Truck, Flak Raider, Terror Drone Tier 2: Mauler Tank, V5 Launcher Tier 3: Devastator Tier 4: - Aircraft (Hangar): Tier 1: - Tier 2: MiG, Hind, Tier 3: Kirov, MYK Dropship Tier 4: - NAVY Tier 1: Supply Barge, Sea Reaper, Junker (radiation cannister ship), Amphibious Transport Tier 2: Typhoon Attack Sub, Giant Squid Tier 3: Dreadnought Tier 4: Control Ship Discussion Hazza-the-Fox 12:09, November 14, 2011 (UTC) So far, it's mostly identical to the Yuri's Revenge layout, or otherwise the Generals layout; The whole thing is perfectly debatable, with a few particular points of interest; *The Guardian and Flak Trooper are placed in Tier 2; no great reason outside the slighly bump-back of access to tanks (see below), and the relationship between radar and AA. Gameplay-wise, it may be more appropriate to place both in Tier 1 *The Tesla Trooper and Jager are also tier 2; which is exactly like Yuri's Revenge; although as both units are potentially vastly deadlier than their RA2 counterparts, may warrant being bumped up to tier 3. *The Spies are in Tier 2- this is deliberate as it would allow some early-game espionage to hopefully get a few lucky infiltrations before the defense builds up, and the attacking player needs to get Alarm Bypass training. *The main tanks (Mauler and Kodiak) are Tier 2; this, along with their price-rise, helps reduce the chance of tank-spamming. Plus, as these tanks are extremely dangerous compared to their Red Alert 2 counterparts, are simply too strong to be tier 1. Ditto on the V5 and the MARS. *There are no Tier 1 aircraft, for the simple reason that the Radar is a direct pre-requisite for aircraft anyway *The Blackhawk is a fairly standard shuttle unit- while the MYK is a massive monster that could turn an enemy base inside out with the right combinations- hence, the MYK is tier 3, while the Blackhawk 2 (of course, as a radar-evading chopper it might *possibly* warrant tier 3 too. *The Battlecruiser and Typhoon have been placed in Tier 2, rather than 1, as a possibility (being that they are the strongest naval general combat units), although they may be better as both tier 1 anyway. *The Control Ship and KRONOS are the only units that would warrant Tier 4; considering their abilities and range, they would potentially be floating, miniature superweapons. *National units have not been included yet- they would depend on if they were all to be of the same tier (most likely 2 or 3), or if they too would be multiple tiers (possibly warranting a few 4s- although this is actually not recommended). Thoughts? VolteMetalic 19:53, November 14, 2011 (UTC): I think that I know how to make that tree to make it easier to depict. *Guardian and Flak Trooper are good to be Tier 1, as they are also anti-armor units, defense agaisnt vehicles of Tier 1. *Yup, that might work. *Yup. *V5 and Mars might be Tier 3. And you already named it as Mars MRLS, not MARS :) *Yes, no Tier 1 aircrafts is fine. *Blackhawk is good to be Tier 1, and MYK for 3. *Hmm... I guess that Battlecruiser and Typhoon should be Tier 2. Avenger and Sea Reaper might be Tier 1, and the US Sub and Radiation Ship to be Tier 2 too. Dolphins and Squids... hmm... *Yup, Control Ship and Kronos are fine to be Tier 4. *National units... probably individually by their strength. M-COM, Crazy Ivan, Terminator, Mobile Fortress as Tier 4... and for rest I will think about :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Don't worry, I actually have it illustrated, I'll put it up either here or my DA site (once I get the hang of uploading stuff) *No probs- Guardian and Flak Trooper are now Tier 1 *Tesla Trooper and Jager are now Tier 3 (leaving the 'assault' infantry- Pariah and Rocketeer- nicely in Tier 2) *V5 and Mars as Tier 3? That would probably make sense actually. *You mean Blackhawk as Tier 2 (basic aircraft)- yep, no probs. *The only problem I realized for navy is that the Soviets will have a shore-assault unit ready to go (Sea Reaper), while the Allies have to wait for Tier 2 to get their Battlecruiser, so it may cause some disturbances. Also, with regards to the Allied 'Boomer'- there is a possibility that it might comply with the versatility:combatibility tradeoff rule (where the more versatile unit is weaker than its less-versatile counterpart, to prevent it being necessarily 'better'); So I think it may be a good idea to have both Subs come at the same tech level- but both 'Destroyers/Battleships' to also come in at the same tier also (either 1 or 2). *Agreed- Tier 4 for the top ships *Keep in mind that Tier 4 is virtually ultra-late game- so these units would only start appearing by the time another player had their first Chrono-shift fully-charged; which, for a national side, MIGHT leave them as effectively a completely normal side up until Super-weapon stage By the way- I haven't figured out how to get these pages over to our Red Alert Zero section yet... VolteMetalic 11:09, November 15, 2011 (UTC): its easy, on top of the page you must add ((Forumheader|Red Alert: Zero)) ( exhange ")(" with "}{"¨) :) We will need to decide on infantry tiers first, thanw e will move to vehicles etc. *As Tier 1, there are 5 infantry, thats fine. An attack dog, scout, basic infantry, anti-armor infantry and engineer. *As Tier 2, there is a spy and one infantry (Rocketeer, Pariah). But there needs to be added something else too. Maybe the Tesla Trooper and Jager? Or not Tesla, but PsiCorps. *And as Tier 3 will be two nationals (Centurion, M-COM, Desoaltor, Crazy Ivan) and one heavy infantry (Tesla Trooper, Legionnaire). Or not Tesla, but PsiCoprs. Thoughts? Hazza-the-Fox 21:18, November 15, 2011 (UTC) Aha! Excellent! *Yep *If it were between Tesla Trooper and Psicorps, I'd say Tesla Trooper/Jager for Tier 2 and Psicorps/Chrono-Legion for 3. The only other alternative is to implant another infantry type into tier 2 (possibly a Medic and a 'Morale officer'). *For national infantry- tough call. If we opted for tier 2 (Red Alert 2 style)- you would get far more play out of them throughout the match. But it would also depend if enemy players would be ready for them at tier 2 (which admitedly can get quite early). So Tier 3 is looking like a possibility. VolteMetalic 22:09, November 15, 2011 (UTC): *Tesla Trooper sounds to me quite heavy infantry and high-tech, but PsiCorps just as well. The addition of two more infantry also sounds great, Allied Medic and Soviet Comissar. :) So as Tier 2, it might be for Allies Rocketeer and Medic, and for Soviets Pariah and Comissar, sounds fine? *Tier 3 then might be the Allied Chrono Legionnaire, Jager, Centurion and M-Com, and Soviets Desolator, Tesla Trooper, PsiCorps and Crazy Ivan. Sounds good? Two normal and 2 national units? Hazza-the-Fox 01:04, November 16, 2011 (UTC) *Sounds good! I think both of these new infantry units woudl do fine wielding a pistol (especially the Comissar), and either healing; and the other providing a damage or armor boost, respectively. And I agree, the likes of the Tesla Trooper and Jager are now a bit too strong for Tier 2, so tier 3 it is! *That would work and is probably realistic given the capabilities of these units- we just want to consider how the games would go so the player remembers that they are dealing with a faction with its own unit before either unlocks Tier 3; as Red Alert 2, the players were treated to their enemy's units quite early on. So perhaps a possible option would be that when the player reaches tier 2, they are sent one free national unit for an early attack (IF they had built the corresponding structure- eg Hangar if it is an aircraft)- but are unable to build anymore until they actually get to tier 3? VolteMetalic 08:20, November 16, 2011 (UTC): *Yeah, you remembered me one option! That they will dont unlock unless you reach Tier 3! :D But I dont know how do you plan to make the option to choose the National unit? Hazza-the-Fox 10:29, November 16, 2011 (UTC) There are plenty of possible ways; one might be to simply have a 'generals power' that unlocks upon completing the Radar (AND the structure that your nation's unit comes from, obviously)- which simply builds one instantly and for free at the structure, as if you purchased it normally. It could be called "National Reinforcement" or something simple. Obviously, this power is strictly either a one-off, or alternatively, has an incredibly slow recharge speed (that might have the positive psychological effect on players deciding not to build any, but wait for the extremely slow trickle of free national units to do its course- thus reducing spamming). VolteMetalic 19:34, November 16, 2011 (UTC): The General/Support Powers to send in the National units with VERY long reload time might work well. For the option of choosing National units, it will unlock 6 (or how many Nations are there) support powers. And depending on what you choose first will determine what you will have. Right? Thats fine! :D But maybe it could be able to unlock 2 National units, maybe. So, for infantry tiers, after discussing this, we will have all? Hazza-the-Fox 00:51, November 17, 2011 (UTC) Yes- in multiplayer the ability will simply grant you the unit that corresponds to the nation you play as (for example, if you picked Germany, and you then built your factory and Radar, you would then be able to 'purchase' your free Nashorn). VolteMetalic 08:28, November 17, 2011 (UTC): And the Support Power, it will send you a reinforcement of Nashorns, or a mix of all? Hazza-the-Fox 08:51, November 17, 2011 (UTC) Just a single Nashorn each time for a German Player- with the power being first available (and fully charged) the moment he completes both the Factory and the Air HQ Radar; but after spending it must wait for the power to recharge and summon the next single Nashorn. Similarly, a Chinese player would have to wait for the radar and subsequently, the Hangar, before he/she gets his/her first Cricket Siege Hopper. In the single player campaign, it would depend on the mission- or be a completely random unit (or even a group). VolteMetalic 09:02, November 17, 2011 (UTC): That dotn soudns fair to me. German needs Tier 2 struture and radar to gain Nashorn, and Chinese needs radar and Tier 3 structure to use their national unit. I mean the Support Power, not exactly the production of the unit. The Support Power for national reinforcements might be like this. You build Radar/Air HQ. Among the Support Powers there will appear the "powers" of the nations. You will click on one which you choose (Germany for example). All other will disappear and the Germany will be replaced by the "National Reinforcements", which will be available immediately and you will be able to send for Nashorn, as well as build it yourself. In SP... dont know. Hazza-the-Fox 11:33, November 17, 2011 (UTC) That would pose a slight misbalance- but the problem is that it's the only way to ensure every nation would get its free corresponding unit (and it would still be a problem for that nation anyway as far as building it for real). There IS a possible alternative. I considered things like a Dune-style map feature where every player has a 'reinforcement entry zone', where periodic reinforcements (random units) march in from outside the map to your Conyard. That would solve the logistical imbalance and simply allow the ability to depend solely on Radar alone. Problem is, it would be potentially impossible for the Hurricane to enter this way as it needs a runway; UNLESS, of course, it were to fly in, and simply hover in place, able to launch a single attack, but unable to re-arm until its Hangar was built. VolteMetalic 13:27, November 17, 2011 (UTC): That totally changes the gameplay. It would not be a fun as it was before, when you dont have to build factory or hangar. The reinforcmenets should be dropped simply as normal Support Power. Vehicles VolteMetalic 13:27, November 17, 2011 (UTC): Now to the vehicles by Tiers.